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Stu aka TheUKShark
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« on: August 31, 2008, 07:23:42 PM » |
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Full Tilt pro and CardRunners co-owner Brian Townsend has admitted on his blog this week, to multi-accounting on PokerStars and Full Tilt, confessing that he had two accounts on each site. His reason for his blatant cheating? "“Because I enjoy anonymity when playing smaller and am very prideful in what I do.” As a result Full Tilt has suspended his “red pro” status for six months but refrained from going so far as to ban him permanently whilst PokerStars have to public knowledge taken no action thus far. By way of apology, Townsend is donating $25,000 to a charity and removed all but $100,000 in his online accounts. This has evoked differing reactions amongst the poker community with some people feeling sympathy for him believing he has done little if anything wrong whist to the other extreme, some feel he should be permanently banned from every online poker site. Here's my view... Anyone who uses more than one identity on any single site gains an unfair advantage over their opponents, regardless of whether or not the accounts are played simultaneously. If you've played against Brian for some time you will be familiar with various aspects of his play and vice versa. If you then play against him without being aware of who he is, he'd know everything about you and you'd know nothing about him which would have a massive effect on any game. This is the reason most site will not allow username changes except in the most extreme of circumstances. Personally I think he should be permanently banned from both sites, however, having worked in the industry for 5 years I'm more concerned about the site's apparent lack of awareness. They will have systems in place to highlight multiple accounts and as a pro his account will have come under scrutiny not only for professional reasons but by poker playing employees. I find it hard to believe that no member of staff has ever related the accounts and brought it to the attention of the relevant parties. They appear to have tolerated his action which given the current environment is a very dangerous game to be playing. I agree with Johnny Hughes in that he saw an opportunity to gain an advantage and despite being fully aware that taking such action would be against the rules, he didn't have the moral gumption to restrain himself from doing it. Once you've been labelled as a cheat you're stuck with it no matter how much remorse you show and I really am surprised that such a high profile and seemingly able player would take such a risk to their reputation. ...that's just my opinion. Do you agree or disagree? What's your take on events? 
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“Most of the money you’ll win at poker comes not from the brilliance of your own play, but from the ineptitude of your opponents.” - Lou Krieger
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XrayEye/RiverAsUsual
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 09:46:44 AM » |
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I agree with you Stu, afterall if he just wants anonimity there are plenty of other sites he could have joined with an unidentifiable username. Obviously he wanted to use his knowledge of the players whose game he knew well to milk them easier. eg if most of his opponents know he likes to be aggressive with speculative hands and have a set of special personal rules about how to play against him, then he could play that type of game without those players adopting affective tactics.  Obviously the sites don't seem to care that much. If he wants anonimity then don't become a site pro! Take sponsorship with one hand but offer a fair gamble with the other. What next turning up at a live event in an hijab? 
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I can beat all of the players some of the time, some of the players all of the time but I can't beat the damned dealer!!
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Triurluk
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 07:10:18 PM » |
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Hey hey guys, saw this post and thought would throw my 2pence worth in. I too workin in the industry and have done for many years now and there are indeed very strict guidelines regarding multi account use. It is deemed unacceptable for players to use more than one account as you both correctly state for fairness reasons to other players based on the unfair information advantage. It is however appreciated by most gaming companies that at times players will have multiple accounts that have been deposited and used and will not be classed as a potential risk. I.e. a player creating an account on xyz.com, the deposits players for 6 months. Forgets his log in details or the fact that he even has an account and then recreates a new account. This is accepted as just an honest mistake and one of the accounts closed. (Usually the original). One thing that I would like to point out however is that on some sites it is possible for players to play against other regular players with complete annomity withour breaking any rules at all. As I am sure that you aware, high stakes players tend to play on the same tables with relativley the same people and over a period of time get to know these players in and out. Now lets say one of these pros was playing on PokerRoom and had the username 'abc' for example, whats to stop him then creating an account on say MANSION or BWIN or any other site on the Ongame Network with say username 'xyz' and joining the same table as he always plays on PokerRoom and using this knowledge to his advantage?  ?? You see aslong as he is not colluding/dumping in any way, this is not deemed by the networks or individual poker rooms as being a problem. This same principal applies to all Poker Networks and as long as the player is not directly colluding or breaching any terms of service this is accepted. So this brings me to my point..... if Brian Townsend should be banned permanently or temporarily for 'Cheating' by using a different name, does this mean all other players legally able to do the same are also cheating???! I mean just because the multiple accounts were on a network not individual site means that player is not cheating and cannot be penalised.  ?!!!
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Stu aka TheUKShark
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 08:32:09 PM » |
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It's a very good point Triurluk!
Obviously such networks/sites have systems in place to prevent players from logging into multiple accounts on any one network, would it be so difficult to ensure usernames also match? Do network/sites have anything to gain from not implementing a one identity rule on the network? Why is it considered acceptable?
Personally, given the level I play at and the fact I've mainly played tournaments it's not a problem that affects me to much, however I am aware that when I play on a networked site that this is a possibility. At non-networked sites I expect it not to be.
The problem particularly at the highest level is the frequecy of which the same players make the final table, players build a familiarity with each other and a degree of trust, just as you do when playing with anybody frequently. He has actively made an effort to cheat his peers and in some cases friends as well as potentially thousands of other players.
Obviously I don't play at this level but if I discovered somewhat that I regularly played with me had done this, I would feel aggreived regardless of whether or not the site was networked, however I would be in no position to complain as the same opportunity was available to me. I wouldn't feel cheated.
In this case it was not a level playing field for all as I cannot (or should not be able to) open multiple accounts and I can't help but suspect he must have exploited his contacts in order to get away with it as long as he did.
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“Most of the money you’ll win at poker comes not from the brilliance of your own play, but from the ineptitude of your opponents.” - Lou Krieger
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Triurluk
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 08:44:21 PM » |
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I do agree Stu. Although I fully appreciate that when playing on a networked site you are aware that you will be playing with players that you have encountered before but now under a different alias, it is still somewhat unfair.
Townsend was bang out of order to be playing such high stakes with a double alias expecially seen as a player of his calibre knows only too well the etiquettes and advantages of player information at the table.
And to be fair, $25,000 to charity is merley pocket money compaired to the monies I'm sure that he has reaped as a resault of this.
Problem is, I doubt very much that this was alllowed as long as it did based on the 'contacts' that he had, but more on the fact that if the player is genearting so much rake for the company that they would 'turn a blind' eye as they say.
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Stu aka TheUKShark
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 09:07:33 PM » |
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Problem is, I doubt very much that this was alllowed as long as it did based on the 'contacts' that he had, but more on the fact that if the player is genearting so much rake for the company that they would 'turn a blind' eye as they say.
That's pretty much what I mean! As you know, such players accounts come under scrutiny from not just the security departments of the sites but many others, as well as employees who simply like to follow their progress and look into the intricacies of the way they play. It must have come to someone's attention at some point or another, those employees regardless of their position should have known that it was a major infringement of the rules and escaleted it accordingly. I have never came across a high profile professional poker player who did this whilst I was employed at 888.com, but I did come across many high level cases where players had assumed multiple identities and they were all dealt with swiftly and severly. Although in some cases it was dependant upon the severity and it intent of infringement, often their accounts were permantly blocked and all funds in their account seized. I would expect the same to have been the case had it ever been a named pro!
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“Most of the money you’ll win at poker comes not from the brilliance of your own play, but from the ineptitude of your opponents.” - Lou Krieger
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crispy17
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 06:34:58 AM » |
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I dont like cheating fullstop.But in this instance I'm a little confused.Did this Townsend guy ever double enter both ac's in the same games? If not,although I understand your arguments is he really cheating?If he is then so are a lot of us,including several members on here,myself included.I am a member of rileys and 888 with a different user name on each and Ive always been led to believe from inc and the forums that this is perfectly acceptable.In fact I am allowed another ac with another affiliate I understand.So where is the line drawn?I know I dont play for big stakes and wont cause a ripple win or lose but is that the point.Maybe in the future with experience,if I wasnt so tight or some prat gives me a big stake out of the kindness of their hearts my level of play would become significant!Am I to assume that I would then be reclassified as a cheat. A slightly bemused crispy
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cryptic3
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 05:00:04 PM » |
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I dont like cheating fullstop.But in this instance I'm a little confused.Did this Townsend guy ever double enter both ac's in the same games? If not,although I understand your arguments is he really cheating?If he is then so are a lot of us,including several members on here,myself included.I am a member of rileys and 888 with a different user name on each and Ive always been led to believe from inc and the forums that this is perfectly acceptable.In fact I am allowed another ac with another affiliate I understand.So where is the line drawn?I know I dont play for big stakes and wont cause a ripple win or lose but is that the point.Maybe in the future with experience,if I wasnt so tight or some prat gives me a big stake out of the kindness of their hearts my level of play would become significant!Am I to assume that I would then be reclassified as a cheat. A slightly bemused crispy
I think the difference is the fact that we tend to let people know we have various accounts with affiliates and what our player names are. Plus of course most of us only play for a few bucks and not thousands. Anyway crispy to open your other account just click on our banner below. Theres a great first deposit bonus.  
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I AIM TO PLEASE BUT SOMETIMES I MISS
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crispy17
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 11:26:09 PM » |
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Cheers cryptic,what a salesman.Regarding the link;If I open an ac with this site will I be able to use crispy17 or will I have to use another nick as i play on 888?
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Stu aka TheUKShark
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 12:26:00 AM » |
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Cheers cryptic,what a salesman.Regarding the link;If I open an ac with this site will I be able to use crispy17 or will I have to use another nick as i play on 888?
You should be fine either way mate  Let me know if you have any problems!
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“Most of the money you’ll win at poker comes not from the brilliance of your own play, but from the ineptitude of your opponents.” - Lou Krieger
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MitchellC
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 04:10:56 PM » |
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Sorry to say but: 1. Anything tying cheating with online poker is bad for the game. 2. That this cheating is connected with a Pro makes it worse. 3. The perception is that he won big money playing online poker, and he admitted he cheated. 4. The poker sites don't seem to care enough to catch this problem, or to punish when a Pro is caught breaking the rules.
What about the players who lost money against him?
There is nothing good about this story. It just demonstrates why a lot of poker players think online poker is not legit, and other players from even playing online poker.
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Author of "Tournament Poker" 101 Winning Moves." Check out 10 plays and 5 tips for FREE at www.APokerExpert.com
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Stu aka TheUKShark
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2008, 05:45:58 PM » |
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I couldn't agree more MitchellC!
I first started working in the industry some 5 years ago when public awareness of online gaming was relatively little. Ever since I've encountered a great many people who have been highly sceptical and I've always done my best to convey the legitimate nature of online poker, which from my experience I'd known to be true. Unfortunately over the last few years this is becoming increasingly difficult.
As I say my experience of 888.com is that their integrity is without question. They operate extremely cautiously across all aspects of their business (often to my frustration in the past) and place a great deal of emphasis on the need to be whiter than white in order sustain their reputation and standing as one of the industries leading providers. Indeed it was this kind of ethical thinking that led me to firmly believe other sites were just as vigilant and therefore made me so confident in proclaiming the industry's virtues.
I honestly felt that none of the bigger sites would come close to being involved any such cases and that anyone operating with even the slightest hint of corruption, would be squeezed out almost overnight and thus negating any real impact on public perception. The only viable way to operate was with a zero tolerance approach.
This has a great deal do with the ineptitude and lack of action from the sites caught up in such scandals, the only high profile case that I feel was dealt with in appropriate manner by the site was the PokerStars' V0id scandal.
However, the attitudes of members has also impacted upon it, as whole there seems to be somewhat of a tolerance to such occurrences. I can't understand why anyone even considers playing at Ultimate Bet/Absolute Poker anymore!
Both sites and players need to take a more firm stance in future, not to mentioned the need for a regulatory body to investigate and issue tangible and effective punishments on offenders.
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“Most of the money you’ll win at poker comes not from the brilliance of your own play, but from the ineptitude of your opponents.” - Lou Krieger
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MitchellC
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2008, 06:31:24 PM » |
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Thanks!
The last time I posted about my dismay on online cheating (in another forum), the reaction was critical of me for not understanding the situation.
Good to know 888.com is so strong on the topic. Too bad they don't work in the US.
I do play online poker, but not nearly as much as before because of all these scandals and rumors about cheating. In fact, I've gone from playing 3-4 times per week, to maybe once or twice per month. Of course, I am not saying I am typical of online poker players. Just that it has influenced my habits...I play more often at the nearby card rooms...which is a pain when you have to drive to these b&m places.
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Author of "Tournament Poker" 101 Winning Moves." Check out 10 plays and 5 tips for FREE at www.APokerExpert.com
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Stu aka TheUKShark
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2008, 07:25:03 PM » |
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I know just what you mean, I much prefer playing live and I would say that side of my game is better than my online game, but there are aren't that many opportunities around Gibraltar apart from the occasional home game and weekly one up at the local casino. That said, they're building a new casino down at the marina and the GCBPT in Gib shows that things are finally picking up.
It has become increasingly hard to find a site which you can feel safe, secure and protected and in recent years I've tended to only deposit in site who have a strong precence and reputation in the UK, such as Virgin, Blue Sq. and Gala. Such sites tend to have build the reputation around other offerings and are therefore unlikely to take the risks that many of the US operated sites seem to. When 888 initially withdrew from the American market, I thought that it was perhaps a bad decision. The company had only floated 20% of itself of the stock exchange and would therefore have been in a position to buy back those shares, making themselves a small profit in the process. As a private company the complications of remaining in the market would have been significantly less and as would be the total value that the company lost as a result.
However the more of theses scandals that originate from the US, the more inclined I am to believe it was the correct decision. The industry almost seems to be split in two, with a clear trend of those not operating in the US market showing a lot more vigilance; which is not good for the prospects of American poker players given the current legal climate.
I'm certainly less inclined to try out new sites and I think everyone is a lot more sceptical about the industry than they were a couple of years back.
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“Most of the money you’ll win at poker comes not from the brilliance of your own play, but from the ineptitude of your opponents.” - Lou Krieger
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kan0
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2008, 06:04:15 AM » |
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I can't believe that he was at the Virgin poker festival lol just realised hes quite a celeb in poker.
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